Curse

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

But I do understand that the larger issue is the question of whether the use of the mod in this instance is acceptable. A title once took months and a lot of ingenuity to acquire. Now, it can be obtained with virtually zero ingenuity (other than finding the mod and installing it

) and in a matter of days.

Has this been proven, or are you just basing this off of Torqual's overexaggerations?

Saraphim · Oct 31, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Is there any ingenuity in the Sweet Tooth title though? That gets recognised in the HoM as well, and can be easily bought with enough funds. I'm not sure ingenuity is even needed for LGMC, I, like many others just wall-hugged till my eyes bled, no ingenuity involved there either, although 'tricks and exploits' such as Eredon Terrace and Necrotic Traversal could be described as such, but then neither are necessary to get LGMC.

Rider · Oct 31, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Most titles can be bought with enough money... People buy game gold online for real money which is against the rules but they still do it... I don't agree with it and won't do it but it will not stop others. GMC still has to be gotten by going out and physically doing it. I highly doubt that LGMC can be gotten in only a few days time. I agree that ingenuity is not needed for it as well... scrape around the edges till the red dots meet then run zig zag pattern across the middle. Still has to be physically done as well as dealing with creatures.

Lady Lozza · Oct 31, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, it can be obtained with virtually zero ingenuity (other than finding the mod and installing it

) and in a matter of days.

To be quite honest, I disagree with this statement. There is no ingenuity required unless areas like JQ and Eredon Terrace become necessary for the title.
Someone who wall scrapes properly can do this without the mod and without outside help and they will do it just as fast as someone with the mod. I'm nearly done with Elona and I've wall scraped every map only once this time - I've learnt from the mistake I made in Cantha.

The point that a lot of us are trying to get across is that there is no less effort involved. My current method is Elona is this:
Scape scrape scrape - alt tab - check 100% map - alt tab - check for missing bits - rinse and repeat.
If when I finish I have 0.1%s missing I'll probably open gimp and run some filters but I am not going to scrape maps more than once.

My method, I honestly believe, is no different than what the mod offers, except it involves more eye strain which is not a good thing.

By classifying people using mod methods "cheating" or even just "lazy" because they got the title done faster than others is suggesting that those of us who have learned from our mistakes the first time around are also "cheating/lazy" regardless of the fact that some of us haven't used the mod at all.

Summary - the OP wall scraped maps more than once and that is what took the time and the "ingenuity", but why should those who wall scrape only once be labelled as "lazy/cheats"?

Karyuu · Oct 31, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Gaile: The mod changes the color of the fog. That's all it does, and not a single thing more. If this change is so dramatic that it causes you concern because people are finally having an easier time in the game and not straining their eyes, not switching back and forth between Photoshop, not playing with difference layers, maybe the original was a bad design choice to start with.

And for the record, there is absolutely zero ingenuity in the Cartographer title. Scraping walls? You do that regardless of what you use, and that's the only way to get this title anyway. Where does the ingenuity come in? Scratching your head wondering where that last .2% is? Figuring out how to use an outside graphics application and compare screenshots?

This mod takes what in my opinion is an extremely iffy design and makes it easier for others to work with. Take it away, and they go back to Photoshop as before - not a single thing will change except players wasting more of their time fiddling with layers.

I believe your concern here is a bit misguided, as well as unwarranted.

ChaoticCoyote · Oct 31, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReiNaruto

Why do we all continue arguing about this?

Because Gaile has opened this as an "issue" with her boss, and has taken sides in a community debate. Her statements suggest strongly that she really does not understand what the Cartography mods do.

Also: ANet documents and approves of Texmod on their OFFICIAL WIKI, yet there is now potential to have it BANNED.

Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. ANet is a master of the art.

Amon Warrior · Oct 31, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Ingenuity for scrapping walls?!? There are far better things to be ingenious about than that...

I hope that if such a title exists in GW2, they'll improve the fog contrast so that no mods, map images, Photoshop, whole encyclopedias on... scrapping walls for pixels... will be necessary... and keep the eye strain to a minimum...

Thank you very much.

freekedoutfish · Oct 31, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

Gaile: The mod changes the color of the fog. That's all it does, and not a single thing more. If this change is so dramatic that it causes you concern because people are finally having an easier time in the game and not straining their eyes, not switching back and forth between Photoshop, not playing with difference layers, maybe the original was a bad design choice to start with....

So your suggesting that Anet should have used the mod method themselves from the start?

How exactly does a fluencient, highlighted map look natural and fit into the look of the game? The point of the map (as it is), is to look natural and like vegetation, rocks, water and other natural surfaces.

The fog method has existed since the early days of RTS games and it a well established method for hiding areas on a map before it explored.

They could have just completely blacked out the areas you had missed, but then it would look awfull because you couldnt see the entire continent or island and get an entire of how much is ahead of you.

Are you saying you would have rather the map was filled with fluencient colours, sharp ridget edges and completely unnatural shapes and objects from the very start? simply to aid exploration?

GWs is a game which prides itself on gorgeous visuals and it still beats most new games that have just been released. Its meant to look realistic. I would have concidered it a travisty is the map looked horrible because it used that modding mechanism from the start.

Maybe we could have had it as an option, but if the map used the modding system and we couldnt turn it off... id hate it! It wouldnt look natural.

The system which Anet uses is fine, it works!

Just look at the countless LCs out there ingame, with 100% on all maps! Dont suggest a system is flawed, when people are perfectly capable of using it to achieve the end goal. The evidence exists that it can be done using the existing system....

Karyuu · Oct 31, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

What is "fluencient," first of all?

Second, I'm not suggesting that Anet should have used this exact fog appearance as in the mod. What I am saying is that when it comes to exploration and actually needing to rely on that fog to achieve something, without any sort of counter per zone or any way of telling when you can successfully move on to another area, the original design is flawed. Just because people have been able to explore to 100% doesn't mean that the system is optimal and perfect as is. Clearly this mod has shown that there is room for improvement, and that many players desire a better visual aid.

GW is a very beautiful game, I argue precisely this in another thread here as well. And it's entirely possible to create a cartography system with graphics that are both beautiful and friendly at the same time. Plus I am all for options, so if you want the default fog but also have the ability to increase the fog's contrast or saturation or change its appearance when you are aiming for the title, that would be great.

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

How exactly does a fluencient, highlighted map look natural and fit into the look of the game? The point of the map (as it is), is to look natural and like vegetation, rocks, water and other natural surfaces.

She's talking about how the title itself, and how it is acquired, is poorly designed.

And sadly you based alot of your post off of this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Just look at the countless LCs out there ingame, with 100% on all maps! Dont suggest a system is flawed, when people are perfectly capable of using it to achieve the end goal. The evidence exists that it can be done using the existing system....

So. Since people have the title, it is not flawed? That's faulty logic. We're talking about the acquisition of the title, how annoying it is to scrape those walls, not being able to tell if you hit a spot, *missing* a spot, having to exploit game mechanics for a small %...The list goes on, and everything in that list takes a large amount of your time - JUST to find that .01% of map you missed.

What does this mod do? It takes away the time more than anything.

Fitz Rinley · Oct 31, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

freakedoutfish,

What should have been done, and shouls still be done, is for GW to change the program. For as many people as do to use the Mod is a sign that the set up is not preferable. And the change can be made without destroying the picturesque beauty of the gorgeous and useless maps. (When you can't tell whether things are a path or blocked that map is Use-Less! But they are very pretty.)

Simple addition: Emote (/mapped) which will tell you how much of the zone is uncovered/explored.

Preferred addition: The ability to hit a key (one not so far used) or key combo (while holding ctrl + m) which causes the uncleared areas to become glowy red or flat black or something radically distinguishable (as even the terrain features often are not).

And how many of those LCs are out there because they had to use photo-editors to do pain the ass comparisons and Labor at something that is supposed to be entertainment and fun. I am no masochist, but I am one of the strictest persons you will ever meet. I will not use the Mod because it is a violation of the EULA - no matter how much winking ANet gives it. I will not ebay for gold, no matter how convenient it would make the development of my guild hall and 10 characters. I don't buy from others in game because I do not agree with the 100k+ectoes bullcrap that is prevalent there (and I have too much to do to waste weeks asking if anyone is selling what I am after - even tho I never expect anything I would enjoy playing to drop for me.)

And obviously, if so many people are having to use external programs to get the cartography titles (whether picture comparison or Mod) then the system which ANet gave us (What System - its an accident of happenstance in a void - O, did you happen to hit that cliffside at exactly .0174 degrees south of the line directly East from Ruins of Surmia at a 11 o'clock vector while holding a Charr Shaman eating a balogny sandiwich in an upside down headlock? - that is the ANet current system,

) - it does not work for many many people.

All of the arguments for keeping cartography the same boil down to "I suffered endless hours and by gosh and by golly, You Must Suffer As I Have! How can I consider my life worthwhile if I support something that makes things better for others...

!

Ninjitsukitsune · Oct 31, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

.... Cantha GMC was the easiest one imho..... I never compared a map I never modded I just scraped each zone once took me about 4 hours of actually scraping and I didn't have to go to Jade quarry or anything just ran the edges....

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Not all characters are so lucky as to be Canthan.

Foul Play Leo · Nov 01, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Well not much to say that has not been said 500 times all ready So i will just say this. I am not only a client of the mod in question but made it not to upset anyone or to try and cheat at a game (don't like cheating except in sims). The reason we made the mod was to not have to map flip and to use Textmod for something more then WOW my guild hall has cool pics in it now. I wont tell you that it still takes time to get the title because with or with out it you know how long it took and it was not done in a day. I will say this mod gives you less then the PVP person using UI mods to see life bar % spirts and faster interupts. I play the game for the titles and go for what I can I am not rich and cant buy them like some others. In short this mod was made to make use of the textmod program and to help those haveing a hard time with the title. Its free to all and posted for easy download. So all in all if you like it as far as yet Anet allowes it so use it and have fun in what is most of us our favorite game. If you don't like it dont use it. to those that had to do it the hard way(I am one of them)sorry it was not around 2 years ago. I do thank all the people for there opinions that where offered both good and bad. BUT ABOVE ALL ELSE HAVE FUN...

PS had to say something after all I helped make this mess

Chthon · Nov 01, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So your suggesting that Anet should have used the mod method themselves from the start?

How exactly does a fluencient, highlighted map look natural and fit into the look of the game? The point of the map (as it is), is to look natural and like vegetation, rocks, water and other natural surfaces.

1. Really, what is "fluencient"? According to Google, you are the first person to put those particular letters together in that particular order. (Merriam-Webster agrees with Google.)

2. I'm sure they could do something to make the fog more visible than it is now without making it look like crap.

3. Even if they couldn't make the fog more visible without looking bad, they can always make it toggle. Turn on the ugly, fluencient (?) version of the map when you want to get carto points, and then turn it back off for normal play. Piece of cake.

Graveheart · Nov 01, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Well this is somewhat of a ridiculus thread if you ask me,but let me explain some stuff about me.
I happen to be one of the VERY few old necromancers who are still regulars.
I spended 24 months of my life wondering were is the last 4,6% on tyria,and when you are at 95% pretty much you are have to be a psychic to know were the spots are.
So i can say the thing solved a basic problem were no one was willing to help,and lets not hide behind our fingers.
The ones who managed to scrape the entire map arent that wilingfull to give some help or hint.
Now about the thread title,now thats entirely unbased considering you cant get an explorer title to max within 24 hours.
As someone stated,you still have to walk the walk.
So il be blunt and say that the thread starter was actually irritated from some 8year olds that were saying crap.
Cant blame him,simply this is a wrong way to make a point.
Making up a false accusation as well reduces the credibility of the thread subject.
If we did get seriously everything we heard ingame we would still be trying to cap the magical ventrilo boss over the shiverpeaks that gives you the elite skill to talk with others (dont look at me,its not irony its a DOA fact).
Gaile's words over the past was that client modding isnt forbiden and if something breaks,dont call customer support.
Now about some pvp claimings ,about spirit brightness etc are just another false accusation in an attempt to vent anger.
Texmod pretty much doesnt give any advantage which you cant do yourself with tweaking the graphic settings or just making a line with a marker over your screen.
It falls exactly under that category of home systems,were simply someone can make a macro chain of skill usage,he can have a pro keyboard or a lazer mouse.
So what does the poor guy with the 512 ram and ball mouse should do?throw a hissy fit and start saying about inba richy kids?
Bottom line is plain and simple,some of us spended litteraly years to get the %.
And Anet isnt gonna give us the time we spended back,no one is.

My two cent's.

Mineria · Nov 01, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The fog method has existed since the early days of RTS games and it a well established method for hiding areas on a map before it explored.

They could have just completely blacked out the areas you had missed, but then it would look awfull because you couldnt see the entire continent or island and get an entire of how much is ahead of you.

QFT

But now where this overlay has been used, the developers can as well implement its function into the game.
More like damage has been done, and there is nothing else to do about it.
Since you can't:
- Ban those who used it. You wont be able to see who did and who did not.
- Remove the ability to use it would be unfair. Since it has already being used and you can't punish those who did.
- Remove the title. Some used a lot of time to get it.
- Just let it stay as it is. The whole community should be able to use it, not only the few who are on the forums.

I think that should be enough reasons why cartographer made easy should be implemented as a part of the game.
With a button to enable/disable it of course.

seut · Nov 01, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

There is some rather heated commentary directed at the OP, where in fact his question is both practical and philosophical, and is nothing about which we were previously unaware.

Maybe you missed the post, in which the OP calls opposing arguments excrements and utter tripe.

Reread his first words again..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

OK, before I start, no need for anyone to give me abuse. Yes, this is QQ, it's a whine, it's whatever you say it is. So save your breath.

This whole thread was started to vent off some steam using exaggerated arguments. There is nothing philosophical in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I have sent an email to Mike O'Brien asking him specifically about this.

I can't believe you seriously did this.

GW has many issues that makes the game less enjoyable.
One of it is the character based grind that opposes Anet's original mission statement of "skill over time".
Before the release of EotN the developers said: "We want to reward the players". The Hall of Monuments only rewards players who concentrate on one or very few characters. Players who like variety are left out, even though they have supported the game for the same time.
Another issue are the various graphical glitches and clipping errors. Players asked for an option to change faces that got destroyed during the introduction of lip movement and to change hairstyles that clip with several armors. It wouldn't take too much effort to implement a "change character appearance" button on the character selection screen that takes use of the already implemented functionality of the character creation process.

Reasonable requests to improve the enjoyment of the game get repeatedly shot down with the "this would postpone GW2" statement, but this nonsense thread is worth getting the bosses attention and steal valuable time from GW2's development?
ArenaNet and GuildWars have changed over the past 2 years and not always for the better.

arcant · Nov 01, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

So we have the Cartographers who went through the tediousness of wall scraping and Cartographers who used Texmod. And amongst these we have the pro-Texmod camp, the anti-Texmod camp and the It's Okay We All Had Fun camp.

Uhh... so the old Cartographers can say with (indignant) pride that they put in all the painstaking effort, and the Texmod Cartographers can say with (insolent) pride that they did it in a day. Each to his own.

I don't proffer to be pro or anti Texmod because I haven't used it, but I'll just like to present the realist point of view. ALL titles are limited by an unchanging upper boundary, and they will be relatively cheapened, over time, and as new methods of achieving them are found. There's no escape.

Karyuu · Nov 01, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

You can't do it with texmod in a day. The people who claim to have done so are bragging exaggerations. Plus people who use texmod still have to wall scrape! There is indeed no escape in the basic method used to attain this title. It is simply easier to see the fog that remains :]

(There are a lot of misconceptions about texmod floating around, and I like squishing them out )